Doug and I did work together on the FAB 50 for 1999. We had Evangel first I believe to start and they didn't lose. We also knew they might play West Monroe in a state final. They did and I even went to New Orleans to the Superdome to see it. Probably one of biggest games ever in Louisiana history. 30,000 there (more than an NFL game played next day when Saints were sucking).
I seem to recall there also was a guy doing the National Prep Poll at the time using Doug's name as a source but without permission. Doug wasn't doing National Prep Poll in 1999. The NSNS was in transition at the time from Barry to Doug. I know I thought De La Salle was probably better than Evangel (saw both) because well D.J. Williams and Kevin Simon were just so ridiculous at LB/RB. Doug was allowed to pick DLS higher as a way of giving DLS a national No. 1 ranking as well.
That seems to be the way it was going at that time (long time ago). Hope that helps.
Unfortunately, I still haven't been able to find an "official" source for the 1999 NSNS poll. I'm aware of Doug's 2001 book and the stuff listed online by Tennis, but I'm not 100% convinced of the accuracy of those sources given some of the other discrepancies. Though I suppose Huff's book is probably as close to an official source you can get short of an actual copy of the original newsletter (assuming there was a newsletter in 1999 sent out by Doug?). I've found several articles and archived websites from the mid 2000s that reference the 1999 NSNS as naming DLS #1, but none of them provide a source. If I had to take a guess, the first of these referenced Doug's 2001 record book and then subsequent articles just repeated what was said in the previous articles. Given the legacy of Johlfs and Sollenberger and that Doug was already responsible for a different poll which named ECA #1 for the same year, part of me wonders if the 1999 selection by Huff was done retroactively as an homage.
Also, that was an interesting tidbit from Mark re: the 1999 NPP. The two newspaper clippings I found of the 1999 NPP, which I included in my previous comment, list "Joe Myers" as the compiler along with (how the NPP was credited back until its inception in 1987) "a panel of 35 sportswriters". One of those 35 sportswriters credited was "Mick McCabe of the Free Press." I have clippings from 2000 onward that document the transition of the NPP to Jamie DeMoney, so it's interesting that the NPP has this apparent 1 year gap between Huff and DeMoney. I also found newspaper articles showing that DeMoney was doing the basketball NPP in December 1999, but no articles showing him doing the 1999 football poll. I wonder if what Mark is referring to is a different article misattributing the 1999 football NPP to Doug, or if he is questioning Joey Myer's legitimacy, or perhaps something else.
Just found this article... I knew the man simply as "Grandpa Art", though he was technically my Great-Grandfather. He and I were the best of friends when I was young, and I have nothing but the fondest of memories for him. We would do all the typical things that a loving Grandpa and his grandson would together, but there were certainly special moments as well. Every Sunday, he would take me to the Vikings HQ, where he would go to hang with his old friends, get a nice cup of coffee, and let me play/climb on the viking ship that was out in front of the office complex. I was so young, that I didn't know who these people were, but as I got older, I learned that one of the kind gentleman who took time out of his day to chat with us was the one and only Bud Grant. In fact, on more than one occasion, he would leave important meetings, just because he heard that Art Johlfs was in the building. So sad to hear today of his passing, but to me he was just another friend of the family, as opposed to an "icon" or "HOF legend". Thank you for writing this, as Grandpa Art "Basketball" Johlfs was definitely a man for the ages, and worthy of remembrance. Much love and light to anyone who reads this! :-)
This is super interesting. I'm in the middle of going down this same rabbit hole (attempting to track down old "primary" sources) for HSFB rankings. I noticed the 1959 cutoff as well, but never put it together that he likely retroactively made selections back to 1927. It makes sense and your argument is compelling. Do you happen to know if the NSNS newsletters distributed by Sollenberger from the 80s and early 90s are available anywhere? Most of the newspaper articles I'm finding don't contain the complete rankings, just whatever local team happened to be ranked and their ranking.
to forum+mre37&ocejv&5oyk0&f9df4a4c00ef6a4ecfc6ee7e53f4deb6147b249b69e4fbad5929a9b0a8864393
Hi Mark,
I have not found any copies. When Dave Krider died, I was hoping to see if his wife would send me any of his archives/resources since he had that one newsletter that has been mentioned on the wikipedia national champions page. His wife was more than happy to send me his stuff, but all I got was the Joe Namath magazines and his Letterman magazine collection. No newsletters. Barry Sollenberger is dead, but I contacted his former partner Dave Kukuklski in Arizona. But he didn't have any of the newsletters. I've asked Doug Huff, but he doesn't return e-mails these days. So I'm not sure who else would have them.
I've talked to Mark Tennis of Cal-Hi Sports and he indicated that Barry and Doug may have changed some of the rankings as more information became available. For instance Lawrence (Kan.) isn't even in the Top 10 on Johlf's original 1960 rankings, but are No. 1 in Doug Huff's record book published in 2001. Additionally Jefferson (Portland) is supposedly ranked No. 1 by NSNS in 1958 and 1957, but I don't think Johlfs had them ranked No. 1 in either of those years. I think those were changed to reflect the talent in the backfield on those Democrat teams.
Let me know any questions you might have. I've done a lot of research on national rankings and I'm continuing to work on retroactive Top 50 rankings for various years. Working on 1956 right now. Where are you from?
Thanks for the thorough reply! I've also noticed some of the inconsistencies and discrepancies by the stuff listed by Huff and Tennis - especially when you compare them to the older sources available in newspapers.
Currently, I'm trying to untangle the history of some of the polls and track down official sources for the final rankings. I've found plenty of "secondary" sources available or archived on the web, but would feel more comfortable citing more reliable sources as the accuracy of the rankings from the 80s and 90s seems to be... muddy.
For example, I'm having trouble finding an "official" source for DLS's NSNS championship in 1999...
They're listed as champions on these "secondary" sources:
Huff himself states that he was responsible for the NPP from 1987 to 1999 and says that Sollenberge was one of his panelists but doesn't mention the NSNS during that time explicitly:
Given the above, I'm inclined to think that the NSNS and NPP were indeed distinct polls from 1991 to 1998 (that just happened to have the same champions) with Sollenberger responsible for the NSNS through 1998 (possibly 1999) and Huff responsible for the NPP through 1998. I've been able to track down reliable sources for all of the NPP polls going back all the way to 1987. The main problem I'm facing now it seems there are frustratingly few official sources that I've been able to track down for the final NSNS polls from the 80s and 90s.
If you have any additional suggestions on tracking down NSNS for that time period, please let me know.
I'll try to contact Ronnie Flores and Mark Tennis to see if they can shed some light on the subject. They were both working for the Fab 50 rankings and they later worked with Doug Huff.
Here is the reply from Mark Tennis:
Hi Kevin,
Doug and I did work together on the FAB 50 for 1999. We had Evangel first I believe to start and they didn't lose. We also knew they might play West Monroe in a state final. They did and I even went to New Orleans to the Superdome to see it. Probably one of biggest games ever in Louisiana history. 30,000 there (more than an NFL game played next day when Saints were sucking).
I seem to recall there also was a guy doing the National Prep Poll at the time using Doug's name as a source but without permission. Doug wasn't doing National Prep Poll in 1999. The NSNS was in transition at the time from Barry to Doug. I know I thought De La Salle was probably better than Evangel (saw both) because well D.J. Williams and Kevin Simon were just so ridiculous at LB/RB. Doug was allowed to pick DLS higher as a way of giving DLS a national No. 1 ranking as well.
That seems to be the way it was going at that time (long time ago). Hope that helps.
Take care,
MT
Kevin,
Thanks for reaching out to Mark and posting his response.
I'm trying to parse and understand his response. In 1999:
- NSNS was in transition from Barry (Sollenbgerger) to Dough (Huff) (and presumably released by Doug?)
- Mark (Tennis) and Doug collaborated on the Fox Sports Net Fab 50 and named ECA #1
- Mark thought DLS was better than ECA
- Doug "was allowed" to pick DLS (presumably for the separate and distinct NSNS poll?)
I'm not sure things are necessarily any less clear for me personally... haha.
Here's a newspaper clipping I found of the final Fox Sports Net Fab 50 for 1999 which confirms Evangel Christian as that poll's #1:
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/111126422/football-fox-net-sports-fab-50-1999/
Unfortunately, I still haven't been able to find an "official" source for the 1999 NSNS poll. I'm aware of Doug's 2001 book and the stuff listed online by Tennis, but I'm not 100% convinced of the accuracy of those sources given some of the other discrepancies. Though I suppose Huff's book is probably as close to an official source you can get short of an actual copy of the original newsletter (assuming there was a newsletter in 1999 sent out by Doug?). I've found several articles and archived websites from the mid 2000s that reference the 1999 NSNS as naming DLS #1, but none of them provide a source. If I had to take a guess, the first of these referenced Doug's 2001 record book and then subsequent articles just repeated what was said in the previous articles. Given the legacy of Johlfs and Sollenberger and that Doug was already responsible for a different poll which named ECA #1 for the same year, part of me wonders if the 1999 selection by Huff was done retroactively as an homage.
Also, that was an interesting tidbit from Mark re: the 1999 NPP. The two newspaper clippings I found of the 1999 NPP, which I included in my previous comment, list "Joe Myers" as the compiler along with (how the NPP was credited back until its inception in 1987) "a panel of 35 sportswriters". One of those 35 sportswriters credited was "Mick McCabe of the Free Press." I have clippings from 2000 onward that document the transition of the NPP to Jamie DeMoney, so it's interesting that the NPP has this apparent 1 year gap between Huff and DeMoney. I also found newspaper articles showing that DeMoney was doing the basketball NPP in December 1999, but no articles showing him doing the 1999 football poll. I wonder if what Mark is referring to is a different article misattributing the 1999 football NPP to Doug, or if he is questioning Joey Myer's legitimacy, or perhaps something else.
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/110834237/football-national-prep-poll-1999-final/
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/110834348/football-national-prep-poll-1999-final/
Thanks again for your time.
Just found this article... I knew the man simply as "Grandpa Art", though he was technically my Great-Grandfather. He and I were the best of friends when I was young, and I have nothing but the fondest of memories for him. We would do all the typical things that a loving Grandpa and his grandson would together, but there were certainly special moments as well. Every Sunday, he would take me to the Vikings HQ, where he would go to hang with his old friends, get a nice cup of coffee, and let me play/climb on the viking ship that was out in front of the office complex. I was so young, that I didn't know who these people were, but as I got older, I learned that one of the kind gentleman who took time out of his day to chat with us was the one and only Bud Grant. In fact, on more than one occasion, he would leave important meetings, just because he heard that Art Johlfs was in the building. So sad to hear today of his passing, but to me he was just another friend of the family, as opposed to an "icon" or "HOF legend". Thank you for writing this, as Grandpa Art "Basketball" Johlfs was definitely a man for the ages, and worthy of remembrance. Much love and light to anyone who reads this! :-)
This is super interesting. I'm in the middle of going down this same rabbit hole (attempting to track down old "primary" sources) for HSFB rankings. I noticed the 1959 cutoff as well, but never put it together that he likely retroactively made selections back to 1927. It makes sense and your argument is compelling. Do you happen to know if the NSNS newsletters distributed by Sollenberger from the 80s and early 90s are available anywhere? Most of the newspaper articles I'm finding don't contain the complete rankings, just whatever local team happened to be ranked and their ranking.
Kevin Askeland <kevinaskeland65@gmail.com>
10:16 AM (2 minutes ago)
to forum+mre37&ocejv&5oyk0&f9df4a4c00ef6a4ecfc6ee7e53f4deb6147b249b69e4fbad5929a9b0a8864393
Hi Mark,
I have not found any copies. When Dave Krider died, I was hoping to see if his wife would send me any of his archives/resources since he had that one newsletter that has been mentioned on the wikipedia national champions page. His wife was more than happy to send me his stuff, but all I got was the Joe Namath magazines and his Letterman magazine collection. No newsletters. Barry Sollenberger is dead, but I contacted his former partner Dave Kukuklski in Arizona. But he didn't have any of the newsletters. I've asked Doug Huff, but he doesn't return e-mails these days. So I'm not sure who else would have them.
I've talked to Mark Tennis of Cal-Hi Sports and he indicated that Barry and Doug may have changed some of the rankings as more information became available. For instance Lawrence (Kan.) isn't even in the Top 10 on Johlf's original 1960 rankings, but are No. 1 in Doug Huff's record book published in 2001. Additionally Jefferson (Portland) is supposedly ranked No. 1 by NSNS in 1958 and 1957, but I don't think Johlfs had them ranked No. 1 in either of those years. I think those were changed to reflect the talent in the backfield on those Democrat teams.
Let me know any questions you might have. I've done a lot of research on national rankings and I'm continuing to work on retroactive Top 50 rankings for various years. Working on 1956 right now. Where are you from?
Kevin Askeland
Thanks for the thorough reply! I've also noticed some of the inconsistencies and discrepancies by the stuff listed by Huff and Tennis - especially when you compare them to the older sources available in newspapers.
I started down this path with the intent of creating retroactive final "compilation" polls (a poll of polls if you will - i.e., something akin to the BCS for HSFB) so I'm mainly interested in the final top 25 rankings for 1982 onward but also have an interest in documenting the final rankings prior to that. I've been tracking weekly polls and compiling them since 2016. Here's 2022 so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSHy7_Cr04xwj7c_e7Tobn1tiSE3JJIeYbIdQfc9-Sr8REavB3qAypAI3YSv6eOEE7jF8VuwMdvQ1rH/pubhtml#
Currently, I'm trying to untangle the history of some of the polls and track down official sources for the final rankings. I've found plenty of "secondary" sources available or archived on the web, but would feel more comfortable citing more reliable sources as the accuracy of the rankings from the 80s and 90s seems to be... muddy.
For example, I'm having trouble finding an "official" source for DLS's NSNS championship in 1999...
They're listed as champions on these "secondary" sources:
- https://hsgridiron.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/all-time-u-s-national-champions/
- https://www.calhisports.com/2015/01/26/fab-50nsns-usa-football-champs/
- https://web.archive.org/web/20140322112259/http://www.hsfdatabase.com/nsns1999.htm
- http://www.tvillebulldogs.com/dspDoc18.php?qdocid=149
- https://www.calhisports.com/2015/01/26/all-time-u-s-football-champions-list/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_School_Football_National_Championship
They're also listed, seemingly incorrectly, by some secondary sources as the champion for the NPP in 1999:
- https://tennprepdb.com/prepnationrankings.aspx?Season=1999
- https://web.archive.org/web/20041213224332/http://www.prepnation.com/poll/poll.cfm?poll=1&year=1999&week=18
- http://www.tvillebulldogs.com/dspDoc18.php?qdocid=164
- https://www.calhisports.com/2015/01/26/all-time-u-s-football-champions-list/
Newspaper sources show the NPP had ECA as champ in 1999:
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/110834348/football-national-prep-poll-1999-final/
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/110834237/football-national-prep-poll-1999-final/
Along those lines, I'm having difficulty determining if the NSNS and NPP were actually the same poll for most of the 90s...
The Cal-Hi website lists Doug Huff as responsible for the NSNS poll selections from 1982 to 1998:
- https://www.calhisports.com/2015/01/26/fab-50nsns-usa-football-champs/
It also, contradicting itself, by stating that Huff took over direction of the NSNS in 1999 while also starting the NPP in the 1980s:
- https://www.calhisports.com/2015/01/26/all-time-u-s-football-champions-list/
Tennis/Huff also repeats the 1999 NSNS date here:
- https://hsgridiron.wordpress.com/rankings/
They then, seemingly, contradict themselves by stating NSNS selections from 1987-1999 were made by Huff:
- https://hsgridiron.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/all-time-u-s-national-champions/
Huff himself states that he was responsible for the NPP from 1987 to 1999 and says that Sollenberge was one of his panelists but doesn't mention the NSNS during that time explicitly:
- https://www.espn.com/highschool/rise/football/news/story?id=3583429
The wiki article says Sollenberger was responsible for the NSNS until 1999:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_School_Football_National_Championship
Given the above, I'm inclined to think that the NSNS and NPP were indeed distinct polls from 1991 to 1998 (that just happened to have the same champions) with Sollenberger responsible for the NSNS through 1998 (possibly 1999) and Huff responsible for the NPP through 1998. I've been able to track down reliable sources for all of the NPP polls going back all the way to 1987. The main problem I'm facing now it seems there are frustratingly few official sources that I've been able to track down for the final NSNS polls from the 80s and 90s.
If you have any additional suggestions on tracking down NSNS for that time period, please let me know.
I posted Mark Tennis's reply on the top of this thread.
I'll try to contact Ronnie Flores and Mark Tennis to see if they can shed some light on the subject. They were both working for the Fab 50 rankings and they later worked with Doug Huff.